I know there has been a thread about this, but I'm not sure if the recent changes to Judgment of Light in 3.0.8 have affected the opinions on this matter.

During our last Naxx-25, we brought 5 paladins: 2 Holy, 1 Prot, and 2 Ret.

From the old model for judgments, it seems that the prot paladin should be judging light for the extra threat. Since it does not provide them with extra threat, it doesn't seem as crucial so I would assume a Ret paladin should be judging it because I heard that judgments scale with AP and our Ret paladin has a ton of that.

So naturally that leaves the two holy paladins with judging justice even though the judgment itself does not provide much benefit to the raid.

So assuming all that information is correct, my question is concerning the necessity of this model. Normally, in order to compete with other healing classes, I judge light for the extra healing which is really more for epeen than anything else. Should I delegate that task to the Ret paladin in order to benefit the raid more or is the difference not that crucial? (Obviously for Naxx25 it doesn't matter much )

Just wanted to get the new consensus on this topic from you guys.

Thanks

Ret paladin should always do Light since it scales better for them. It will affect the meters but it is best for the raid in the long run. If you want you can rotate who does light to spread the "love".

I generally always run with another Holy Paladin, and we've just decided (between us two) that he would do Light (and it does help out his healing numbers), but then again, I like to run in and do whatever damage I can while also healing. Sure, the RET Paladin should do Light, but you know what, unless this is brand new content and your all undergeared, I highly doubt you will wipe the raid if you or anyone else is judging Light on the same target as the Ret Paladin. On a full clear of Naxx, Judging light can really give you some nice healing numbers, but on a per fight basis, Light was probably not what kept your tank and DPS alive, it was the big heals.

My little causal guild was doing just find in Naxx judging whatever we felt like judging, then I became "aware" (thanks Plusheal) of the best way to use those judgements and we now attempt to stick to it when we actually have a RET (or prot for that matter) in the group, but in the end, we were doing just fine, when we didn't know better.

So, in a perfect world, stick to who gets the best benefit from what judgement, but if not, do what you like, unless your really undergeared and just barely getting passed Bosses, you will not need that "extra" healing.

(as always, just an opinion)

As was covered in another thread, JoL scales with both AP and SP. Looking over the WWS info the average proc from a prot paladin or a ret paladin covering JoL was 100+ more healing done than when I did it. If you wanted to be a stickler you could find out all the paladin's AP and SP to determine who should be in charge of JoL for maximum effectiveness but that seems a little extreme.

Here are the numbers for JoL though:
"Unleashes the energy of a Seal spell to judge an enemy for 20 sec, granting melee attacks made against the judged enemy a chance of healing the attacker for [ 18% of AP + 18% of Spell Power ]."

JoW is a flat 2% of mana return so it doesn't matter who judges it as long as it stays up.

Healing meters aren't the best thing to judge by especially right now when a lot of tanks are more than geared for the content so take minimal damage which leaves MT/OT healers with less healing to actually do with our larger healing spells thanks to our shiny gear. I do think it would be nice if JoL scaled better with SP and less with AP but I guess blizz just wanted to give ret more love. I miss the padding JoL gave my healing numbers but I can still console myself with super high HPS on things like patchwerk where there's a decent amount of damage coming in.

If you have that many ret and prot paladins more likely than not you'll be relegated to using JoJustice. Even with something like Judgment of Wisdom, it's still going to benefit a ret or a tank paladin more to judge it, since Wisdom also scales with AP + SP.

Now, if you all were holy paladins, wouldn't matter as much...

The only thing I would like to add to this discussion (besides the fact that Siha has an amazing blog on this very thing up on Banana shoulders), is that we might want to rethink what we holy pallies judge in Ulduar in multi pally groups, b/c Justice is not going to get the range that light and wisdom get from our talent, which would mean we would need to be w/in 10yds of the target, and screw off on that, esp in new content!!!

So hopefully, they realize that they maybe need to just make pvp rules different than pve and stop screwing us holy pallies in any raid content w/ more than one pally

my $0.02
-V

I learned my lesson from the people here about judgments (thanks again everybody), however I have found that in WotLK content about 85% or more of JoL goes overheal in our raids. However it still accounts for a lot of healing, and wisdom is good but we have no mana problems at all.

When we run with a pal tank, he is often not the MT1 - consequently I still frequently judge light as a rule UNLESS the pal is tanking the main boss. We do not always have a ret pally in the raid, but depending on the fight of course he is not always on the boss but on adds. As such the judgment are not always going on the targets they should be on if you follow me (Ret>Protect>Holy).

So to make sure everyone has their judgments up we have reverted back to a compromise for clarity (the worst is seeing everyone buffing light which I've seen too many times) :

- if pal tank is on the main boss - he judges light
- Ret pals do not judge light to insure that the palatank doesn't get his judgment squashed
- Holy pal judges light if no pal is tanking the boss otherwise wisdom.

If wisdom gets overwritten its not so big of a deal. Yep we lose some heal that way, but no critical judgements are crushed do to communication failures and the difference would only be going into OH anyway. Light is up always too. Theorycraft is great .... if it can actually be applied.

Justice for pal tanks in Ulduar?? maybe so ... always thought this was worthless, until a pal tank kited Arub with 20 in the raid ... it did seem to slow the boss down ... maybe there will be other encounters like this post 3.1 where this might be the best way -- Ret light, Prot justice, Holy wisdom

i had this argument on the WoW pally forums.

Judgement of Wisdom needs to have 100% uptime. period.
your ret pallys will be judging on cooldown 100% of the time, and they are stacking hit so JoW should never get resisted.

JoW always being up will help your raid more than getting the extra healing from JoL no matter what.

so after thats out of the way, then it doesnt really matter who puts up what imo.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you won't find many anywhere that agree.

I have dozens of log parses of sapphiron, sartharion 3 drakes, etc. that disagree with that statement.

then you have really bad healers.

Mod hat on: Blanket statements with no explanation or justification aren't particularly helpful, and ad hominem attacks when challenged on them aren't particularly welcome. Your contributions are welcome here, but please try to remain constructive.

Okay, mod hat off.



No, it doesn't. JoWis gives a flat 2% of the attacker's base mana; it's completely independent of the stats of the paladin who judged it.

My recommendation has been, so far; if your raid has:

* Ret, Prot and Holy: Ret on Judgement of Light, Prot on Judgement of Wisdom, Holy on Judgement of Justice.
* Ret and Prot: Ret on Judgement of Light, Prot on Judgement of Wisdom.
* Ret and Holy: Ret on Judgement of Light, Holy on Judgement of Wisdom.
* Prot and Holy: Prot on Judgement of Light, Holy on Judgement of Wisdom.
* If all your group’s paladins are of the same spec, it doesn’t really matter who judges what. The best-geared paladin should judge Light, as it scales with gear, but it doesn’t really matter.

Some Ret pallies hate this as they don't trust the prot pallies to keep up Wisdom, and they want the mana returns from Spiritual Attunement (which they don't get if it's their own JoL on the target). Put the Prots on Light and Rets on Wisdom if the rets are that worried about mana, though; that way they'll get full Wisdom uptime and SA healing from the Prot's JoL (although the JoL will be inferior as Prot's AP+SP is about 25% lower than Ret's AP+SP).

However! In 3.1, JoJ won't be 40 yards any more, so Holy pallies will have to overwrite the Ret pallies' judgement instead. They should _not_ overwrite the prot paladins' judgement, since that will interfere with Judgements of the Just - so you're either left with having Ret paladins on Light and Prots on Wisdom, and having the Holy pallies put up an inferior JoLight once a minute, or having Prot pallies on Light and Rets on Wisdom, and having Holy pallies put up Wisdom once a minute, which leaves an inferior Light up all the time. I'd recommend the former, but if your ret pallies really cry about mana, the latter is the only option.

Not at all. There are particular kinds of fights where judgement of light is simply amazing. When damage comes in at regular, repeatable intervals, and you have people that are proccing judgement of light heals on cooldown, you simply can't react faster than that, and why should you want to? It's a massive amount of healing for free--not just mana free, but more importantly gcd-free; the dpser is doing it as an entirely normal part of their damage cycle. (It's honestly why I think the ability is a bit overpowered. I do expect a nerf soon if there are any fights in Ulduar with constant damage.) Sure, when you've got fights on farm, you usually don't need the healing, but who cares about farm nights?

In Sartharion 3 drakes, jol can offset 30-40% of twilight torment damage directly. On our last 10 man 3 drake kill, during the time twilight torment was up, our ret paladin put out nearly 2000 HPS among the 6 targets that were taking twilight torment damage, using his completely standard damage cycle. It only does more in larger raids, at no additional cost. Why would you not want that? The 1000 or so mana a warlock or mage might recover during that same time from jow barely even registers compared to that, imo.

When raid damage doesn't matter, sure, use wisdom. But there are certainly places jol beats jow hands down.

Then I should learn better than to check on WoWwiki, that was where I had read that it benefited from both AP and SP. However, even given that, if I was healing as my holy pally in a group that was fortunate enough to have both a ret and a prot pally, I'd still judge Justice, unless there were mitigating circumstances (such as the prot and ret pally not being on the same mob during a boss encounter).. no need to overwrite a stable buff given by someone who can keep it up.

However, I also note that you're concerned a bit about the range changes. I'd honestly not see that as an extreme issue to have to be a bit closer to the mob, although it could be just me, because I tend to be close to the boss with my Seal of Wisdom up in order to regain mana. It could be my differing interpretation of how Blizzard changed paladins, but I think that sometimes holy paladins can and should go up in order to beat on the boss a bit. Is it recommended on all fights? No, of course not, but there are a lot more encounters where the feeling is that Blizzard encourages all pallies to run up to the mob

This is a discussion I was having recently with our raid prot paladin. He doesn't raid with us much due to a busy work schedule, so in naxx25 last week I ended up overwriting his judgements because I was still thinking "warrior/druid" MT's.
He was explaining about Judgement of the Just, but it dawned on me that it really doesn't matter: There's no threat component to JoL anymore, and if your raids are like mine there are al least one/two Death Knights. Icy Touch reduces melee attack speed, talented it reduces it to 20%. Now observation testing, and experience with Blizzard's thinking, tells me Judgements of the Just and Icy Touch will not stack (both are 20%). So we decided that the prot paladin could probably safely use those points elsewhere.
Also our ret paladin prefers to judge Wisdom, and someone else do light so that he gets mana through Spiritual Attunement when attacking. I'm unsure of the wisdom of this (no pun intended), I know the raid would get more benefit from his higher AP scaling. I just have to convince him.

link me a WWS/WMO of your ret pally using JoL.

http://wowwebstats.com/q2e2biehnpzvm?s=74930-101912

The important bit of the fight I was quoting was between the main difficult healing part of the fight: the 58 seconds between the first twilight torment hits and when Shadron dies:

22:44'06.894 Nivwar Twilight Torment hits Nivwar for 1944 Shadow. (328 Resisted)
22:45'04.334 Shadron died.

We just broke out the figures earlier this week when we were having a lot more trouble with the fight with a dfferent group makeup, and realized how valuable the ret paladins contribution was during this part of the fight. I also double-checked the numbers and the number I listed earlier was too high. The ret paladin was worth about 1750 hps, and jol was 1500 hps of that (the rest being divine storm and art of war procs he used.) But I think my point still remains valid; 1500 hps for simply judging with light instead of wisdom in a 10 man raid during the tight healing part of the fight is no small thing, particularly since the healing is spread out to everyone who needs it, which is expensive gcd-wise.

I'd really like to try the fight with less healers and more dps (I figure it's one of those classic balancing acts where bringing less healers can actually make the healing easier) but I think it would be easiest to drop both a healer and a tank, but that's a lot simpler with a prot paladin tanking drakes/adds, and we don't have a prot paladin.

i didnt know we were having this argument about 10 mans, because honestly who cares.

While my guild cannot yet do sarth 3d so I cannot speak from personal experience, I have been told time and time again by folks that I trust (experienced progression raiders as well as respected members of this healing community) that 10man Sarth3D is currently the hardest encounter in the game, which means that talking about 10mans is EXACTLY what we should be talking about when it comes down to discussing the benefits of the hps gained from a ret pallies JoL over their QQ over mana and wanting to judge JoW instead. Considering that blizz EXPECTS you to have replenishment, and if you have a ret pally you have it, mana should not be the issue, especially in the hardest content currently, 10man sarth3D.

In terms of 25mans, while I realize that replenishment is not going to hit everyone like it does in a 10, you are more than likely going to have more than one replenisher in the raid, and again if you have a ret pally, (who imo are the most reliable replenishers w/ the highest _actual_ uptime) then they _still_ should be judging light to benefit the raid, because they will be proccing their own replenishment and ideally still benefiting from any other classes that provide the buff in the raid.

I would also like to reiterate what Siha said with her mod hat on, and that remarks such as yours are not constructive or productive on these boards. There are many that do only 10mans because they prefer the intimate challenge that they can provide, and I would argue that _they_ care

Mod hat on: Second warning. Please stop being derisive of other peoples' raiding experiences. Constructive input and questions are welcome. Dismissive elitism is not. Further conversation in this vein will not be tolerated.

Mod hat off.

Who cares? Seeing that Sarth +3D in 10-man is acknowledged to be the hardest encounter in game right now, harder than the equivalent (or anything else) in 25-man? I would wager that plenty of people care.